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[RQ]

I think the right considers the left to be all about "muh feels" but things like genophilia and patriotism are also just feels

[Gropy]

tl:dr?

[Kami_sama]

^

To be brief I think that, if life becomes harder, the ground people of America will, at some point, just have no interest left in recognizing any sort of utility and authority in their government.

[Gropy]

What will happen if they dont recognize it? Nothing, they'll just use the salami tactic

Look at what happened with the NSA stuff, everyone got pissed about the goverment spying on you, but now; in 2015, no one really gives a shit. Imagine if they slowly bit by bit over a few generation made your life harder (which they already have done) nothing would happen.

[Kami_sama]

The thing is, after a point, it becomes just better to either leave the country or to riot.

And this point is easily reachable because their not in a "do it and die" situation like in this video. Of course this point is far from being reached but I really think something can happen if the difference in life quality between life in the USA and life in another first-world country become bigger.

[Gropy]

No the point of a do it or die stuation is far more reachable then riot, the professor ask if he would nuke himself and his allies to stop the russians, to which the morally right prime minister answer "How can we defend ourself by commiting suicide" as in he would rather live a shitty life under the russians then die.

>The thing is, after a point, it becomes just better to either leave the country or to riot.
We could ask the poor class in China that, why haven't they just moved to a country with better standards? We see what happens when people try to move in a mass to other countries in europe right now.

[Ollistar]

Actually as long as you're not on drugs you can have a decent life. Most of the real bad cases in America are the person's fault.

[ScumbagSoldier]

So currently America look like the England in the 1900 or some kind of monarchy when we look at the structure of the society. The problem with such society is the the low-level tier have a very shitty life and, despite all you can say, have a real hard time even having a slight chance to live somewhat decently.

While you're not wrong, what you're describing is universal. I'd say it's even worse in socialist countries, where if you start moving up, you clearly have more than you need and should behave accordingly.

And it doesn't seems to bother people : proof is the fact that it doesn't seem to bother people that much that you can pay people literally below what they need to live. This, in my opinion, shows that the society isn't united. Of course you can try to unite it against terrorism, China, Russia or whatever, kinda like Europe did in 1800-1900 with French hating on the German and similar shit all over the continent but it's not what we should strive for, from an ethical standpoint. Or so I think.

Again, this issue is practically universal, and it comes from unpredictable change (economics, etc) coming faster than deliberate ones, like those made by the government, as well as likely pressure from businesses, etc. I definitely wouldn't say that people don't care. That said, common goals are one thing, but people aren't obliged to be "united" in anything.  They're individuals before they're citizens, and people are generally united in smaller groups over many different things. Personally, I take something like that as reassuring, as it means people are shaping a more unique identity for themselves instead of being defined by the immediate and obvious, as in previous generations.

Also, due to said structure of society, a lot of people don't really have the education nor the will to understand argument like why taxes aren't thief, why the government doesn't always do such a sloppy work and why the prices of goods doesn't scale 1:1 with the level of the minimum wage. This makes it even harder to change thing.

On the contrary. I think the reason we're starting to see so much more anti-goverment, etc rhetoric is because people are more educated than ever about the world around them, politics, economics, and growth, which gives them a greater understanding of not only why things are the way they are, but that they should be better. Granted, I do feel that many people are willing victims or ignorant, but that generally stems from more left wing types, I find.

The problem with said society is that she can't keep united forever during hard time. When saw it when the French killed their king, when the Russian overthrew their Tsar and with all the little revolution that happened in Europe. To be brief I think that, if life becomes harder, the ground people of America will, at some point, just have no interest left in recognizing any sort of utility and authority in their government. This may not happen during our lifetime but sooner or later America will have to change IMO.

Of course. They have a culture of lies, a corrupt government, a dysfunctional economic structure, are in a state of perpetual growth despite the fact that they can't accommodate it fast enough, and are exploited, and are forced into obligation then worked to death. If it doesn't come in our lifetime (it might.) Things are definitely going to get dicey before it comes, and I'd definitely say that almost the entire world is due for a similar measure.

As a side track on American politics :

Seriously, most of the argument I read in that thread are similar to this one :

see this is what youd call a clash of cultures.  the caliphate you live in pays no mind to forfeiting 60% of your work to your masters, letting in criminals, and generally having no impact on the world besides shitty chairs.  its no wonder a swede would want slavery, its all he knows.

to a man that knows the taste of freedom, the thought of being subjects instead of citizens is abhorrent.  america is a post-enlightenment country founded on the philosophy of liberty, and its one of a kind.  our culture is incompatible with yours, so why does your opinion matter?

Which exaggerate the level of multiculturalism and taxes of Sweden. Then go on a rant and is purely emotional. I pass on the low-level insults because it's Hiro and it's the internet. The problem is that it seems to be the actual level of public debate and the like, based on the few political speech I saw. The problem with those speech is that it's impossible to talk about the issue in a way that could really lead to a consensus or whatever because both speaker only want to make the audience feel like it should vote for them.

While I don't really care about all that beef with Hiro, what you describe towards the end is symptomatic of the times we live in, where nothing seems to be working, so we'll cling to anything that "might" work. Again, this is universal.

As an aside, is the tax rate in socialist countries really 60%? Because that's fucking disgusting.

[正義のヒイロ]

So currently America look like the England in the 1900 or some kind of monarchy when we look at the structure of the society. The problem with such society is the the low-level tier have a very shitty life and, despite all you can say, have a real hard time even having a slight chance to live somewhat decently.

And it doesn't seems to bother people : proof is the fact that it doesn't seem to bother people that much that you can pay people literally below what they need to live.

You can have all your teeth root off and no one will help you if you can't pay and will even consider it to be your fault, but your country is one of the richest of the world. What's the point of being at the top of the technological and economical ladder if it means that people live life as shitty as 100 years ago?

You're joking.  Even the unemployed have smartphones, their own dwelling, and enough food to go fat.  Minimum wage jobs have always been either part time jobs or a stepping stone.  If you don't like where you work, learn a trade, actively find other positions, etc.  And yes, not having insurance is your fault.  It's your fault for not taking responsibility for yourself.  It might be sad, it might suck, you might even get a donation from a well meaning organization - but it doesn't mean you didn't have the hindsight to strive to make your situation better.

This is where culture comes in, like it or not america has a different culture than any other country and you can't deny that.  We don't have common ancestry to keep us together, so our culture is very important when it comes to keeping the country running.  All countries, and thus their political agendas, have deep roots in culture.  You can debate this until you're blue in the face but to say a culture doesn't is unequivocally false.  Americans generally value hard work, responsible individual(individual in the sense of you and your family) decisions, and a mindset that makes you grow as a person.

Also, due to said structure of society, a lot of people don't really have the education nor the will to understand argument like why taxes aren't thief, why the government doesn't always do such a sloppy work and why the prices of goods doesn't scale 1:1 with the level of the minimum wage. This makes it even harder to change thing.

Now I know you're joking.  You seriously just said societal structure doesn't have education praise the government enough.  Well, in the 14 years I was in the american education system that is paid through tax dollars, that is not the case.  I guarantee you our schooling was pro-government, pro-taxes, and pro-union.  You can only effect so many people through indoctrination when it vehemently contrasts from the culture ingrained upon them from society.  Taxes are intrusive to my pursuit of happiness.  Men should be entitled to the sweat of their brow.  Both of these are american concepts. 
Our government takes care of some jobs.  They do them.  But to say they will ever be better than a private sector company is ridiculous.  Especially seeing as how much the private sector has morphed since the 60s.  Government is still stuck on the "increase efficiency" part.  Which they will never get over, because they use other people's money for their projects.

Then go on a rant and is purely emotional

As if yours wasn't any more emotional.  Politics is nothing more than looking at a situation and coming up with a solution stringing facts with emotional calls.  I brought up mass immigration into europe because its pretty obvious they are doing it because of america's success.  After all, anyone who has taken one class of economics realises that the more people engauging in capitalism, the stronger the market becomes.  But a lot of the things that made america what it is aren't compatible with countries in europe.  I think its a euro country that will have a cultural backlash before us. 

Immigration, capitalism, and radical individualism lead to america being the forerunner of the world.  They worked because they are culturally compatible with Americans.  To try to change them would be to change america, and in the process destroy its grasp on the world.

[ScumbagSoldier]

I wouldn't necessarily endorse immigration. At least not right now.

We can't support the people we have already.

[正義のヒイロ]

When you actual look at American news and election polls it's obvious how much political issues that country has. There are too many people with veto power which means no policies can get through since there's always someone who can stop it from happening. The entire nation is divided between 2 primary groups who have no overlap and the media keeps inciting conflict out of everyone

It's worse than that honestly.  Our two parties are pretty much the same except for a few societal issues.  They are both fiscally left, and foreign policy right.  On top of two seemingly identical parties, the "news" forces 2 candidates in your face and tell your to ignore the rest.  If another civil war breaks out, it will be because of the rise of the internet.

^

To be brief I think that, if life becomes harder, the ground people of America will, at some point, just have no interest left in recognizing any sort of utility and authority in their government.

didnt see this, government exists for the people.  they have the authority to lick my ass.  read the constitution sometime, commie

The thing is, after a point, it becomes just better to either leave the country or to riot.

And this point is easily reachable because their not in a "do it and die" situation like in this video. Of course this point is far from being reached but I really think something can happen if the difference in life quality between life in the USA and life in another first-world country become bigger.

lol really?  shit, first world country literally means "USA and its allies".  And people think im delusional because i think everyone should be entitled to their worth.

I wouldn't necessarily endorse immigration. At least not right now.

We can't support the people we have already.

the immigration we have needs reform.  There are three things im against.  First is the colonial tier 14th amendment.  Second is our immigration policy with mexico is too lenient.  Never has america imported a nationality because of its proximity to the US instead of its merit.  Third and lastly we must ship out the 11 million leeches and establish stronger borders.  If you have a welfare state, you must have strict border control.  I want neither, but there is no other way.

[正義のヒイロ]

someone give me an argument as to why flat tax is bad i literally cant even

[Kami_sama]

Hiro posted while I was writting this. It's 6:30AM and I'm tired and I go to bed, I'll read and respond later. Excuse me for the typo and the like.

While you're not wrong, what you're describing is universal. I'd say it's even worse in socialist countries, where if you start moving up, you clearly have more than you need and should behave accordingly.

First of all, you're thinking in a black and white fashion. Most of Europe, if not all of Europe, is capitalist. You can have capitalism with some kind of government intervention, it doesn't make it socialism.

Some big differences between America and some more leftist country, like France for example, is that people know that their children have access to a good education and, would they choose to go to college, the fee wouldn't so high they couldn't go. Also they know that, should something happen on the health level, it wouldn't completely destroy their family by making them go bankrupt. This 2 insurances give them a good hope that their children may go up in the social ladder, despite them being poor. Having a society where people know their children can "go up" socially is usually something you want, because it reduces the feelings of injustice lower social classes may have and thus reduce criminality and the like.

Again, this issue is practically universal, and it comes from unpredictable change (economics, etc) coming faster than deliberate ones, like those made by the government, as well as likely pressure from businesses, etc. I definitely wouldn't say that people don't care. That said, common goals are one thing, but people aren't obliged to be "united" in anything.  They're individuals before they're citizens, and people are generally united in smaller groups over many different things. Personally, I take something like that as reassuring, as it means people are shaping a more unique identity for themselves instead of being defined by the immediate and obvious, as in previous generations.

But people should realise that it's in their own interest to be united as a "nation", so to say, on some point. The fact is that businesses and rich people have a lot of leverage, due to their resources. If the poorer, less powerful people want a chances to have their voices heard, they have to band together to amass enough power to have their claim heard.

Not seeing that is, in fact, being obvious

On the contrary. I think the reason we're starting to see so much more anti-goverment, etc rhetoric is because people are more educated than ever about the world around them, politics, economics, and growth, which gives them a greater understanding of not only why things are the way they are, but that they should be better. Granted, I do feel that many people are willing victims or ignorant, but that generally stems from more left wing types, I find.

When anti-government gain power, it's a bad sign, because it means that the government is doing a sloppy job. His job being to take care of his citizen.

Human will always need to live in society. This means needing rules to live together and the need to have a government to enforce them. Society can't exist without a government of some sort. People spouting anti-government nonsense are usually, I find, blind to the real causes of their problem and use the anti-government things like some other people use racism to make a situation seems easier by putting all the blame on someone. So I don't share your view on this issue.

I'd like to highlight this

Granted, I do feel that many people are willing victims or ignorant, but that generally stems from more left wing types, I find.

This kind of black and white thinking is a typical problem that stop yourself from finding a solution. "Duh, left-wing people are dumb" mentality isn't a good one, because it makes you look down on every thing they say without even considering it. They may not be right on everything, but neither are you. In every debate I see about the American politics, everyone go from one extreme to an other : "nanny-state" versus no state. "socialist" vs "liberal" or whatever. That's a real problem, because you may only be "united" to a smaller group that your whole country but you gotta live with all the people in your country, or at least your state, since you're all under the same lawn and politician. So you gotta be united with everyone from time to time.

Of course. They have a culture of lies, a corrupt government, a dysfunctional economic structure, are in a state of perpetual growth despite the fact that they can't accommodate it fast enough, and are exploited, and are forced into obligation then worked to death. If it doesn't come in our lifetime (it might.) Things are definitely going to get dicey before it comes, and I'd definitely say that almost the entire world is due for a similar measure.

Here I also disagree. People aren't being let down by their government as much in Western Europe. France has a huge young unemployment level but still give them money so they can eat and still take care of the old people so they don't die in the street. Countries have to really be in the real shit to begin to have an approach similar to the US on social services.

One of the main point of having a country is that, if you stick together with more people, life becomes easier because everyone is making a small sacrifice that could maybe help you a great deal. I feel like the US miss the point.

While I don't really care about all that beef with Hiro, what you describe towards the end is symptomatic of the times we live in, where nothing seems to be working, so we'll cling to anything that "might" work. Again, this is universal.

You missed my point. My point is that the US does seem to be able to have a cold-headed debate while taking things with a grain of salt, think not only in absolute but also in shades of grey and so on.

Currently political debate I saw felt more like people yelling their truth and whoever yelled the strongest win. This is not a global thing.

As an aside, is the tax rate in socialist countries really 60%? Because that's fucking disgusting.

No it's not. Also taxe rate is usually progressive. Like, for example (totally made up number), if you make 1 million per year, the first 100'000 will be taxed at 10%, then the following 500'000 at 13% and so on or something like that.

[正義のヒイロ]

90% of your post is already replied to in my previous comments.  of course different systems make different countries happier.

the reason american college funds are so high is because of government education and government sanctioned loans

Sweden has a progressive income tax, the rates for 2014 are as follows: 0% from 0 kr to 18,800 kr (~0 – 2,690 USD) Circa 31% (ca. 7% county and 24% municipality tax): from 18,800 kr to 433,900 kr (~2,690 – 62,140 USD) 31% + 20%: from 433,900 kr to 615,700 kr (~62,140 – 88,180 USD)

31% for the poor, 51% for what would be considered upper-poor to lower-middle class in america.  This tax system is nearly indefensible

[正義のヒイロ]

hur american politics are so emotional dum americans xd

its the same as it ever was