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Author Topic: General Chat  (Read 600153 times)

Kami_sama

  • Posts: 4116
  • Live large, die large. Leave a giant coffin.
Re: General Chat
« Reply #210 on: May 26, 2015, 04:21:13 PM »

I think it's some kind of competition between states.

Also, if you live in one country, maybe were born in this country, you probably wouldn't leave it to save 5% off your taxes.
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McJongJing

  • Posts: 7667
Re: General Chat
« Reply #211 on: May 26, 2015, 04:22:35 PM »

Isn't it like 40% in the upper echelons.
I'd move somewhere else with that.
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ScumbagSoldier

  • Posts: 2597
Re: General Chat
« Reply #212 on: May 26, 2015, 05:01:34 PM »



...but society is fucking EVERYONE in the ass! The rich are getting fucked by the government, while you're getting fucked by the rich, who keep wages down because they're getting fucked in the ass, and because they're bastards. Meanwhile, the government is further deducting wages to send people poorer then yourself to school, as well as provide them with free money, as they proceed to NOT pay taxes and...oh my, what happened to that equality you were providing again?
The rich are hardly fucked by the government. :laugh:
The government allows them to have access to a stable country with plenty of workforce they can hire and then milk as consumers. It's only normal they have to pay for it.
What the fuck am I reading?
It's the government's job to maintain society, and uphold the law, as far as I'm concerned.



Also having government-subsided education and other basic facilities (medicare, etc.), if you can't afford them, is indeed helping equality. If you free lower classes of some of their financial burden, then can shoot for higher education level, which allows them to "level up" in the social ladder. Whereas it would be impossible if one semester in your uni was worth 1 year of salary of your father.

This also assure you that people will have a good level of education, including in technical domain. This way you can sustain an industry relying on high quality product and high quality trained worker, which allows you not to totally lose against China.
You always, ALWAYS lose to China when it comes to unskilled labor, unless you want to reduce minimum wage, which is always a bad idea. That said, I certainly agree that education needs to be accessible. I don't know what's the best way to do it.

This isn't even into the government deciding precisely how much of your wealth is in need of a thorough redistribution, who are a collective of incompetent beurocrats who are a slave to self interest groups and the banks.
Bureaucrats are not incompetent. Western government aren't all corrupt. If you really think your government is nothing but corrupt people trying to steal most of your money you should either move out or start a revolution.
What the fuck am I reading?


And no, Kami. Our rich pay almost nothing because they control the government.
Maybe if people tried to change it instead of saying it's all corrupt it would be better ? Maybe also if you'd join forces against richer people instead of hitting poorer people with sticks the people fucking you in the ass would have an harder time doing so ?

We're working on it. These things take time, and there's always so much to fight, and worse, many people simply don't care because they're relatively comfortable, and have some sort of awareness of the problems in the back of their mind, but prefer not to think about them. Also, this is Canada, dude. The middle class get fucked over on behalf of the poor, too.

I don't want a system that just "works." I want a system I can ideologically be happy with.

You know, MJJ, I think we found our answer as to why people are continuing to believe in socialism. They're simply comfortable, so whatever's going on is clearly working.
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RQ

  • Posts: 862
  • ayy lmao
Re: General Chat
« Reply #213 on: May 26, 2015, 06:41:25 PM »

Really misguided view, there's a lot more that needs to be changed. I'm really optimistic about the future and glad that more people are aware of the issues in our world thanks to the internet but there's a ton to improve in terms of our current system.

You always, ALWAYS lose to China when it comes to unskilled labor, unless you want to reduce minimum wage, which is always a bad idea.
But from the point of view of a capitalist it's not a bad idea. It's actually really beneficial to them which is why there's hundreds of millions of children working in sweatshops around the world.
The market demands the competitiveness which drives employers to squeeze productivity out of workers for the sake of profit.
It seems "fair" because it's a two sided agreement between the employer and employee but that is assuming both parties have an equal amount of power and rational thought, which is rarely actually true. The people who end up on the shitty wageslave side of the deal suffer from it, and it doesn't just stop there. The enforcement of property rights as well as the constant perpetuation of "if you work hard you'll be rich too!" is what keeps the process going everywhere.

The problem with capitalism is more than just increasing wealth inequality, the system is based on pitting people against each other since it's productive but by the same method it also promotes narcissism and encourages sociopathic traits.

All of these things are capitalism by itself, regardless of government. Of course when it does mix with government, the issues become a lot more dangerous. It puts a price tag on things such as the environment and societal health, and makes it much harder for most citizens to influence their government.

Capitalism endorses meritocracy like it's the absolute truth even though higher pay is actually not always correlated with better performance but we still act like it's fair to give a CEO hundreds of times more pay than average workers, as if they actually work that much harder.

I think that part of the reason capitalism is so popular is because of the rise of existentialist thought and the emphasis on individualism in western culture. It seems that it's the most "efficient" way to gain the things you want in a world where everyone around wants something different, not to mention that increased individualism weakens unions and public action which are both big pluses for employers.
There's a big emphasis on being the result of your choices instead of your circumstances and that if you work hard enough you will be successful too, but that's literally being ignorant to the fact that we do not exist in a vacuum.

There's no system that is ideal but some are easily better than others at providing a healthy and educated lives for most people while still maintaining a good amount of personal freedom.
I don't think that all of capitalism needs to be scrapped, but the current connotation of more money always being desirable is nonsense and lots can be done to make what we have currently work better.

Changing our system doesn't just mean putting more restrictive tax laws for that "hurt your freedom" for the sake of making poor people rich, it actually requires changes to our fundamental ideas of self worth, merit, progress and success
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McJongJing

  • Posts: 7667
Re: General Chat
« Reply #214 on: May 26, 2015, 07:13:09 PM »

I'm not going to read that novel.
Can we please get a new thread going for capitalism vs commies?
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ScumbagSoldier

  • Posts: 2597
Re: General Chat
« Reply #215 on: May 26, 2015, 07:29:35 PM »

You've almost got it figured out, dude.

Almost.

there's a ton to improve in terms of our current system.
Hell yes.

You always, ALWAYS lose to China when it comes to unskilled labor, unless you want to reduce minimum wage, which is always a bad idea.
But from the point of view of a capitalist it's not a bad idea. It's actually really beneficial to them which is why there's hundreds of millions of children working in sweatshops around the world.
The market demands the competitiveness which drives employers to squeeze productivity out of workers for the sake of profit.
It seems "fair" because it's a two sided agreement between the employer and employee but that is assuming both parties have an equal amount of power and rational thought, which is rarely actually true. The people who end up on the shitty wageslave side of the deal suffer from it, and it doesn't just stop there. The enforcement of property rights as well as the constant perpetuation of "if you work hard you'll be rich too!" is what keeps the process going everywhere.


Of course, the rich should always, ALWAYS be hot under the collar about keeping their employees happy, because they know that they're the be all, end all, of their infrastructure. However, poor thinking, and misguided attempts at guiding the economy, as well as some good old fashioned corruption have made it so that people are thirsty for jobs, which employers are exploiting. This sort of circumstance should never be allowed to come about in the first place, and it's a bitch to fix once it does, but not impossible.

The problem with capitalism is more than just increasing wealth inequality, the system is based on pitting people against each other since it's productive but by the same method it also promotes narcissism and encourages sociopathic traits.

All of these things are capitalism by itself, regardless of government.

My ass they are. As much as capitalism is about fulfillment for the individual, we're part of a community, and more people would be wise to wake up to that, because it gives them a a good, common goal which they can use for leverage. They are, after all, consumers and workers, which makes them the beginning and the end of infrastructure.




Of course when it does mix with government, the issues become a lot more dangerous. It puts a price tag on things such as the environment and societal health, and makes it much harder for most citizens to influence their government.


I very much doubt socialism does much to curb this, if anything, it's evidence as to why the people must take responsibility in its leadership.



Capitalism endorses meritocracy like it's the absolute truth even though higher pay is actually not always correlated with better performance but we still act like it's fair to give a CEO hundreds of times more pay than average workers, as if they actually work that much harder.


I've always found a lot of wage figures arbitrary, but if you asked me, if workers feel they're entitled to more money, or if their higher ups are not acting in the best interest of the company, it's their responsibility to leverage for it.



I think that part of the reason capitalism is so popular is because of the rise of existentialist thought and the emphasis on individualism in western culture. It seems that it's the most "efficient" way to gain the things you want in a world where everyone around wants something different, not to mention that increased individualism weakens unions and public action which are both big pluses for employers.
There's a big emphasis on being the result of your choices instead of your circumstances and that if you work hard enough you will be successful too, but that's literally being ignorant to the fact that we do not exist in a vacuum.


Varying circumstances is always an inevitability, and one I don't have a straight answer for, but in a healthy economic state, higher education should never be inaccessible.

The idea of unions or public action being counter to individualism or socialist is propoganda. It is a leveraging of worth for a common goal.

There's no system that is ideal but some are easily better than others at providing a healthy and educated lives for most people while still maintaining a good amount of personal freedom.
I don't think that all of capitalism needs to be scrapped, but the current connotation of more money always being desirable is nonsense and lots can be done to make what we have currently work better.

Changing our system doesn't just mean putting more restrictive tax laws for that "hurt your freedom" for the sake of making poor people rich, it actually requires changes to our fundamental ideas of self worth, merit, progress and success

You almost get it, man. You can see all the ways we're sick, which is more than I can say for most people, but your only mistake was taking the cancer as part of the package.

I'm not going to read that novel.
Can we please get a new thread going for capitalism vs commies?

Fuck you. :love:
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McJongJing

  • Posts: 7667
Re: General Chat
« Reply #216 on: May 26, 2015, 07:40:28 PM »

Isn't global poverty decreasing?
Yes kids are working in sweat shops, but it ain't like they were doing much better before.
It's a step up from the back breaking labor of a farm.

I'm not going to read that novel.
Can we please get a new thread going for capitalism vs commies?

Fuck you. :love:
Time and place fag?
 :sparkle:
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RQ

  • Posts: 862
  • ayy lmao
Re: General Chat
« Reply #217 on: May 26, 2015, 08:40:42 PM »

Of course, the rich should always, ALWAYS be hot under the collar about keeping their employees happy, because they know that they're the be all, end all, of their infrastructure. However, poor thinking, and misguided attempts at guiding the economy, as well as some good old fashioned corruption have made it so that people are thirsty for jobs, which employers are exploiting. This sort of circumstance should never be allowed to come about in the first place, and it's a bitch to fix once it does, but not impossible.
Why do you say employers should always be that?
Socialism would prevent that entire exploitation thing from happening.

My ass they are. As much as capitalism is about fulfillment for the individual, we're part of a community, and more people would be wise to wake up to that, because it gives them a a good, common goal which they can use for leverage. They are, after all, consumers and workers, which makes them the beginning and the end of infrastructure.
Socialism is literally the public standing up to do that. You might want be interested in reading this book.

The idea of unions or public action being counter to individualism or socialist is propoganda.
What did you say here?
I said in my post that individualism is deterrent of the formations of unions, which are a lot more in line with the opposite outlook.

Honestly I'm pretty confused by your post you seem to agree with everything socialism stands for and then you say that I'm making a mistake somehow.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 08:43:27 PM by RQ »
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Royalkitten

  • Posts: 1439
  • huh
Re: General Chat
« Reply #218 on: May 26, 2015, 08:56:31 PM »

>socialism
And that's all I am gonna say.
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RQ

  • Posts: 862
  • ayy lmao
Re: General Chat
« Reply #219 on: May 26, 2015, 09:10:52 PM »

Isn't global poverty decreasing?
Yes kids are working in sweat shops, but it ain't like they were doing much better before.
It's a step up from the back breaking labor of a farm.
Yes that's true
According to the Gates Foundation there will be no more poor countries by 2035

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McJongJing

  • Posts: 7667
Re: General Chat
« Reply #220 on: May 26, 2015, 09:14:57 PM »

Why would we stop when what we're doing now is working then?
Why would you take such a big risk?
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RQ

  • Posts: 862
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Re: General Chat
« Reply #221 on: May 26, 2015, 09:16:25 PM »

>socialism
And that's all I am gonna say.
Yeah you read a bunch of existentialist books ofcourse you're not going to agree
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ScumbagSoldier

  • Posts: 2597
Re: General Chat
« Reply #222 on: May 26, 2015, 09:17:41 PM »

Of course, the rich should always, ALWAYS be hot under the collar about keeping their employees happy, because they know that they're the be all, end all, of their infrastructure. However, poor thinking, and misguided attempts at guiding the economy, as well as some good old fashioned corruption have made it so that people are thirsty for jobs, which employers are exploiting. This sort of circumstance should never be allowed to come about in the first place, and it's a bitch to fix once it does, but not impossible.
Why do you say employers should always be that?
Socialism would prevent that entire exploitation thing from happening.


Of course, it would just mean we're being exploited by the government, too. :wink:

The ones who are the key to manufacture, ie, workers, and generally those who have a service to offer, should be the ones in power.

Socialism is literally the public standing up to do that.

Control of manufacture by workers is a small part of the communist manifesto. I suppose you could call it the one thing Marx got right.
The idea of unions or public action being counter to individualism or socialist is propoganda.
What did you say here?
I said in my post that individualism is deterrent of the formations of unions, which are a lot more in line with the opposite outlook.

There's a big difference between acting together for a common goal, and compromising for a collective.


Isn't global poverty decreasing?
Yes kids are working in sweat shops, but it ain't like they were doing much better before.
It's a step up from the back breaking labor of a farm.
Yes that's true
According to the Gates Foundation there will be no more poor countries by 2035



kek at this.

With the way things are going, not only are the poor countries going to be worse, previously prosperous countries are going to be on some hard times when the wreck of an economy they've been continuously applying bandages to finally gives.


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RQ

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Re: General Chat
« Reply #223 on: May 26, 2015, 09:23:45 PM »

Why would we stop when what we're doing now is working then?
Why would you take such a big risk?
Well our own systems would still be filled with problems, and getting potentially more unstable unless serious action is taken.
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RQ

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Re: General Chat
« Reply #224 on: May 26, 2015, 09:31:46 PM »

The ones who are the key to manufacture, ie, workers, and generally those who have a service to offer, should be the ones in power.
Did you see this link that I posted earlier as a better alternative http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syndicalism
It's doesn't mean there needs to be a huge powerful government or even any at all  :angry:
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